albie
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Post by albie on Mar 26, 2009 11:03:03 GMT
I'm not seeing this properly. It seems to me you are talking about lucid dreaming. What's the distinction? Are you awake when you are doing this?
I have encountered evil presences in dreams. One was an odd one I had as a child involving a haunted house across a river. I wanted to go to the house, but I knew that if I crossed the river I would not come back. I read years later that people who have NDE sometimes encounter a barrier like a river that if they cross, they will then not come back to life. They die.
The ghosts that lived in that house were only vaguely human, and at first I thought they were long curtains flapping in the windows. The round white featurless heads should have given them away.
Another time, I saw a demon in a dream, that on waking and telling to my sister, admitted she had seen herself in a dream. I recalled that there had been a female with me in the dream. It may be worth saying that I now resemble that demon! And he later turned up in a book by Clive Barker. Which I hadn't read at the time. I also drew a scene from that same book before I had read it, involving the 'demon'. Who was really a man who became a demonic entity. This is indicative of how odd and complex the events occuring are. Or seem to be. I'm far too critical to believe anything.
As for my evil acts, I am pretty evil. Or am filled with it. I put it down to the others that seem to pop up in my head. But I have got through 36 years without anything serious happening, although I have been in trouble with the law over a small offense. I seem to get by with evil in my soul. I am too smart to bow down to urges.
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 26, 2009 14:57:05 GMT
It's a difficult distinction between lucid dreaming and dream walking. That's why I say it must be experienced. It's so fine that one could argue it theoretically either way but I have to stress that I have had lucid dreams and the other experiences just weren't lucid dreams. They were quite simply 'being there' and knowing that you were in a real place. You just know that you are in that place.
In a lucid dream you might see some evil things. In dream walking you are intensely aware that you exist on a certain plane and it's real. There are other entities in those places that appear to have a consciousness of events, they are distinct from you and appear to be able to really meet up with you. I have no doubt they can kill you or worse.
But anyone could just say bollocks to this - its only a dream and I would have to say 'think what you wish'.
When I was in this little house I was really there. Castaneda would argue that other people, awake people, would have seen me in this place.
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Post by carolinec on Mar 26, 2009 17:54:52 GMT
In dream walking you are intensely aware that you exist on a certain plane and it's real. There are other entities in those places that appear to have a consciousness of events, they are distinct from you and appear to be able to really meet up with you. I have no doubt they can kill you or worse. But anyone could just say bollocks to this - its only a dream and I would have to say 'think what you wish'. Hmmm, interesting discussion this. Call me a skeptic but I'd say the scientific explanation (if I recall correctly from reading it somewhere) for any kind of dream is something about electrical impulses providing us with inexplicable images, and our brains simply perceive these as something we know in an effort to make sense of them. So, for example I'm a Doctor Who fan (sorry - can't help it  ). The other night in a dream I was being chased by Zygons (they're "monsters" from classic Doctor Who, for those who don't know  . But those images in my brain were most likely just random patterns from my electrical impulses, brain chemistry, or whatever strange stuff is going on in my mind at the time. I simply perceived them as something I "know" - ie. Zygons from Doctor Who. Using that explanation, the contention that anything in dreams is "real" is nonsense, is it not? Now, please don't get me wrong - I'm definitely not having a go at either of you, Craig and Albie, but I just wondered what your take on that viewpoint is ...? (similarly, on the menopausal theme, the changes in brain chemistry at that time - as in adolescence - can cause very strange "patterns" and interpretations of those) |
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 26, 2009 18:08:48 GMT
All I can say cc is that I am doctor Who fan too.
Seriously, the scientific arguments have their own validity. It's all a tough debate in philosophy - what is real, what is not. I simply favour an empirical and pragmatic approach.
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albie
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Post by albie on Mar 27, 2009 11:01:49 GMT
>>In a lucid dream you might see some evil things. In dream walking you are intensely aware that you exist on a certain plane and it's real. There are other entities in those places that appear to have a consciousness of events, they are distinct from you and appear to be able to really meet up with you. I have no doubt they can kill you or worse.
I have experienced this in dreams, though. Sure that it is real. And a presence of evil more than simply seeing something evil. I have had a lucid dream in which I was stood in a supermarket. I was there so long and it was so real that I thought I must have died and this was my hell. It was that real though. Memories of dreams seem less real than memories of real events. Smaller, like a small tv. But that is just the memories of them.
It is impossible for you to distinguish your experiences from lucid dreams, in regards informing us. But if you say they are different then we take that on board. I'm critical to the core. You have to be when you are crazy.
>>Using that explanation, the contention that anything in dreams is "real" is nonsense, is it not?
I have dreamt the future, plain and simple. Nonsense does not mean that it is untrue. The universe is nonsense, according to the very laws of physics. It defies them. Nothing should exist at all. Here we are. Nonsense made real.
The mind is an electrochemical entity, as far as science knows. The universe is connected to us, passing through us in all manner of ways. The idea that impulses from outside could infringe is not that crazy.
Not that your Zygons weren't just neurons firing off randomnly.
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 27, 2009 12:13:48 GMT
It's a tough question. I studied and taught philosophy for about fifteen years. My main interests were religion/belief systems, morality and reality. I've always been fascinated by these things. We always come up against the same issues which can be boiled down to the relative versus the absolute.
In the case of my experiences what objective criteria can I offer - none. What subjective criteria everything. I believe everything and nothing, everyone and no one. I don't like to use the words 'believe in'. Life seems to be a series of experiences with some indeterminate 'I' at the centre of it. Nothing is provable. David Hume was the first to adequately express this. Each experience is unique with only apparent connections to others. Most people are anxious to get a set of boxes in which they can label experiences and distinguish one from the other. When I do this I know I will lose at chess.
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Post by carolinec on Mar 27, 2009 14:00:59 GMT
I hear what you're both saying about the "science" thing and I agree. OK they may be able to measure these electrical impulses in the brain in sleep laboratories - they probably know that part is true. But as for the idea that we somehow fashion the random patterns caused by these into something that we can understand (eg. my Zygons!), well that's purely speculation.
As Craig says:
>>Each experience is unique with only apparent connections to others. Most people are anxious to get a set of boxes in which they can label experiences and distinguish one from the other.<<
That's the process of perception - we each try to make sense of what's around us in everyday life, what we see, hear, feel, etc - there is no real "reality" for everyone, it's a unique interpretation of how we see the world. But that's pure theory (I studied and taught Psychology!) - it can't be proven or disproven. So who's to say whether that happens in sleep too - or not, as the case may be?
But I sincerely hope my Zygons were just random neurons and not real! I've had a lot of dreams about being chased by Doctor Who monsters. Perhaps my parents were right - I shouldn't have watched those kinds of programmes when I was so young! ;D
Last night, I was fighting someone or something in my sleep - no concrete image, just a huge black shadow ...
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albie
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Post by albie on Mar 28, 2009 11:50:18 GMT
>>Last night, I was fighting someone or something in my sleep - no concrete image, just a huge black shadow ... Sorry, I got frisky.  >>I hear what you're both saying about the "science" thing and I agree. OK they may be able to measure these electrical impulses in the brain in sleep laboratories - they probably know that part is true. But as for the idea that we somehow fashion the random patterns caused by these into something that we can understand (eg. my Zygons!), well that's purely speculation. I'm not even certain of what you are saying. Are you saying that dreams do not stem from the electrical activity of the brain? >>>>Each experience is unique with only apparent connections to others. Most people are anxious to get a set of boxes in which they can label experiences and distinguish one from the other. I'm not so sure about this uniqueness angle about experience. I think nothing is unique. We are finite entities, as far as we know. The finite is always repeating. I just think it is impossible to measure one person's experience against another, because it is all relative. You may say dreamwalking is vivid. But I may have had dreams more vivid. Your lucid dreams may not have been that vivid, so when you encounter a dreamwalk and say it is more vivid than YOUR lucid dreams then that doesn't really gauge it for me. Things like vividness are grey areas and the only way to measure them is for me to be in your head. But then you were probably already saying that. |
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 29, 2009 3:00:46 GMT
Probably I was. It's some kind of balance - solipsism I suppose, the eternal loneliness of existence broken up by moments where you believe you empathise and share, not really knowing if you did. Trust comes into somewhere
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Post by carolinec on Mar 29, 2009 12:34:53 GMT
>>Last night, I was fighting someone or something in my sleep - no concrete image, just a huge black shadow ... Sorry, I got frisky.  That IS a scary thought!  >>I hear what you're both saying about the "science" thing and I agree. OK they may be able to measure these electrical impulses in the brain in sleep laboratories - they probably know that part is true. But as for the idea that we somehow fashion the random patterns caused by these into something that we can understand (eg. my Zygons!), well that's purely speculation. I'm not even certain of what you are saying. Are you saying that dreams do not stem from the electrical activity of the brain? Oh no, you've misunderstood me there. I'm saying that dreams DO stem from the electrical activity in the brain. But it's the interpretation each individual puts on the resulting "patterns" - their perception of the world - which is the bit I believe (as a psychologist) is unique. For example, I interpreted the random patterns I experienced the other night as Zygons from Doctor Who, whereas someone who'd never seen that story in Doctor Who might have interpreted them a different way. We use what we already know to make sense of the world around us (or in our heads, as the case may be). Am I making any sense? Probably not - but what's new! ;D |
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 30, 2009 9:49:44 GMT
I'm not convinced by electrical patterns in the brain cc. Isn't this a bit insular. I mean, what produces that configuration of pattern - chemical reactions - then what produced them and so on? Ah, the endless debate..... |
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albie
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Post by albie on Mar 30, 2009 10:24:47 GMT
Fear is the stem. We all see our fear as something apt to us. I would have seen Ogrons instead of Zygons. Or better yet, those blue werewolves who make funny electrical growls in INFERNO. That's a Pertwee story, Who fans. Dreams are a great inspiration. They trigger the natural creative side of us. I recall a dream about Daleks when I was a child, in which the daleks became metal cooking pans and dustbins. In a sense they became everything around me. The everyday. There is a greater fear there. Of magic dying. The feeling colours my will to write. How's this for horrible: Sunday I dreamt I was to be the father of the antichrist. I was quite enthralled by the prospect in the dream, and on waking. Kept me going all day that feeling. |
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 30, 2009 18:02:15 GMT
If you father the Antichrist will you be volunteering to change his nappies? That could quickly squash the feel-good factor
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albie
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Post by albie on Mar 31, 2009 10:12:08 GMT
I was wondering, if he was to become the antichrist it might be better to neglect him or her. Which leads to questions of what creates evil. Maybe a full nappy is that factor. I know it makes me mad. Actually, the dream may refer back to a story I wrote recently, but seen from the perspective of characters I only had in the background. Like it was all actually real...now.
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 31, 2009 11:00:48 GMT
if he was to become the antichrist it might be better to neglect him or her
That made me laugh. I think you're right. The problem after though is that maybe he wouldn't view his dad as that decent old fellow who brought him up nicely. Hammer horror scenarios suggest unpleasant ends....
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). The other night in a dream I was being chased by Zygons (they're "monsters" from classic Doctor Who, for those who don't know 
. But those images in my brain were most likely just random patterns from my electrical impulses, brain chemistry, or whatever strange stuff is going on in my mind at the time. I simply perceived them as something I "know" - ie. Zygons from Doctor Who.
